Serious ? about group sizes

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This topic contains 23 replies, has 15 contributors, and was last updated by mystro Mystro 3 months, 3 weeks ago.

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  • October 20, 2013 at 12:46 pm #600246 Back to Top REPORT
    tubemkr
    Tubemkr

    Age: 46
    Joined: 2/27/2011
    Location: Oklahoma
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    I almost hate to ask this question, but it is something I have been wondering for a long time now. I mean absolutely no disrespect by it and am not disputing that there are some who can do this, just not me. I have been noticing that people mention shooting groups around 3 to 3-1/2″ groups out to nearly a hundred yards. I am really beginning to doubt my own shooting abilities because I find that I am lucky to shoot basketball sized groups at 70 yards under the normal conditions in which I shoot (outside, Oklahoma wind, etc…). I am shooting a Z7Extreme that is set up for hunting. Accessories are QAD HD Bone Collector Edition rest, 7″ B-Stinger stabilizer, 5/16″ G5 Meta peep, T5 quiver, string loop, True Fire caliper release, Axcel Armor-tech HD 5 pin .019″ front sight, and Gold Tip Pro Hunter 5575 arrows with 100 gr. tips for a delivered weight of 370 grains. Bow is set up to 70 lbs. and draws 29″.  I find that I can’t even see a 3-1/2″ spot beyond 40 yards due to the diameter of the sight pins. Granted, I know I lost some stability after shoulder surgery and cannot see quite as well as when I started shooting 25 years ago, but I don’t think I was ever that good, therefore I must not be doing something right, poor tuning, incorrect arrow selection, poor shooting form, or who knows what else. Till now I had always considered myself slightly above average in my archery skills, to which my shooting friends generally agree, but now I really wonder. Am I incorrect if I say that a shooter who can shoot 3″ at 80 yards could theoretically shoot 1-1/2″ or less at 40, and 3/4″ or less groups at 20 yards, and 3/8″ or less at 10 yards? I feel like adding distance introduces more variables that act against accuracy than just the simple math I did here and likely a 3″ 80 yard shooter should in reality shoot something closer to 3/8″ at 20 yards. Is this really happening for everyone but me?
    Jerry
    October 20, 2013 at 6:51 pm #600309 Back to Top REPORT

    BOC

    Joined: 6/12/2006
    I’m with you bud….your post is spot on.  Frankly, I find myself just ignoring posts when people brag about group sizes.  It is all relative.  No one takes a tape measure out and measures their groups to make an accurate post!  I always laugh when guys post pictures of their group sizes.  I can guarantee you they take the picture of their best grouping and make the post.  Not every round is like what you see.

    How does that saying go?  “Believe none of what you hear(read) and half of what you see.”

    October 20, 2013 at 9:56 pm #600345 Back to Top REPORT
    bow-drawn
    Bow Drawn

    Age: 62
    Joined: 11/14/2007
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    I almost hate to ask this question, but it is something I have been wondering for a long time now. I mean absolutely no disrespect by it and am not disputing that there are some who can do this, just not me. I have been noticing that people mention shooting groups around 3 to 3-1/2″ groups out to nearly a hundred yards. I am really beginning to doubt my own shooting abilities because I find that I am lucky to shoot basketball sized groups at 70 yards under the normal conditions in which I shoot (outside, Oklahoma wind, etc…). I am shooting a Z7Extreme that is set up for hunting. Accessories are QAD HD Bone Collector Edition rest, 7″ B-Stinger stabilizer, 5/16″ G5 Metapeep, T5 quiver, string loop, True Fire caliper release, Axcel Armor-tech HD 5 pin .019″ front sight, and Gold Tip Pro Hunter 5575arrows with 100 gr. tips for a delivered weight of 370 grains. Bow is set up to 70 lbs. and draws 29″. I find that I can’t even see a 3-1/2″ spot beyond 40 yards due to thediameter of the sight pins.Granted, I know I lost some stability after shoulder surgery and cannot see quite as well as when I started shooting 25 years ago, but I don’t think I was ever that good, therefore I must not be doing something right, poor tuning, incorrect arrow selection, poor shooting form, or who knows what else. Till now I had always considered myself slightly above average in my archery skills, to which my shooting friends generally agree, but now I really wonder. Am I incorrect if I say that a shooter who can shoot 3″ at 80 yards could theoretically shoot 1-1/2″ or lessat 40, and 3/4″ or lessgroups at 20 yards, and 3/8″ or less at 10 yards? I feel like adding distance introduces more variables that act against accuracy than just the simple math I did here and likely a 3″ 80 yard shooter should in realityshoot something closer to 3/8″ at 20 yards. Is this really happening for everyone but me?

    A 5575 shaft is .400 spine and that is too weak for your setup . If you used a stiffer shaft you groups would shrink and with practice shoot those desired groups possibly with correct form.

    October 20, 2013 at 10:38 pm #600352 Back to Top REPORT
    tubemkr
    Tubemkr

    Age: 46
    Joined: 2/27/2011
    Location: Oklahoma
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    Thanks Bow Drawn, I always wondered about the spine of my arrows and had noticed that they seemed to tighten up with lighter heads. It puzzles me why GT would label them 5575 when they are underspined for a 70lb draw weight with 100gr. heads. What is unfortunate is that I really can’t see well enough to focus on the pins without my glasses, but can’t really focus on the target with them. I suppose it is just one of the many benefits of getting old. lol

    BOC, I like shooting at longer distances just to see what I can manage to hit, and I have pulled off some pretty crazy shots…but never with accuracy that is better than a good marksman could do with a handgun offhand. Those were mostly just one-time luck shots. I don’t even have pins to 80 yards. My 5th pin is at 60 yards, but I have noticed that the top of my sight level is about 80. I’m not even sure what sight has enough pins to get out that far.

    Jerry
    October 21, 2013 at 9:05 am #600396 Back to Top REPORT
    vash
    vash

    Joined: 5/30/2010
    i think people exaggerate ;)

    i’ve shot some fantastic groups at 80..enough to make me run and grab a camera to prove it.  but i wouldnt call that “my group size”..

    i have a buddy that thinks his bow is a rifle.  he shoot for the horizon.  he always tells me about tiny groups plunking into a distant target, but i’ve never seen him shoot one.  i saw him miss a 18-1 at 50 yards too!!  i didnt say anything.

    there are some good shooter for sure, but i’m not really one of them.

    October 21, 2013 at 9:09 am #600399 Back to Top REPORT
    indychris
    Indychris

    Joined: 6/22/2004

    i think people exaggerate ;)

    No doubt! As Abraham Lincoln once said, “Don’t believe everything you read on the internet just because there’s a quote with someone’s picture next to it!”

    October 21, 2013 at 9:32 am #600402 Back to Top REPORT
    bow-drawn
    Bow Drawn

    Age: 62
    Joined: 11/14/2007
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    Thanks Bow Drawn, I always wondered about the spine of my arrows and had noticed that they seemed to tighten up with lighter heads. It puzzles me why GT would label them 5575 when they are underspined for a 70lb draw weight with 100gr. heads. What is unfortunate is that I really can’t see well enough to focus on the pins without my glasses, but can’t really focus on the target with them. I suppose it is just one of the many benefits of getting old. lol 

    BOC, I like shooting at longer distances just to see what I can manage to hit, and I have pulled off some pretty crazy shots…but never with accuracy that is better than a good marksman could do with a handgun offhand. Thosewere mostly just one-time luck shots.I don’t even have pins to 80 yards. My 5th pin is at 60 yards, but I have noticed thatthe top of my sight level is about 80.I’m not even sure what sight has enough pins to get out that far.

    I hope you are welcome. I know I don’t practice over 45 yards and that’s not every day. And my groups some days are way better than others at any distance. I know if I shoot regularly and practice good form my groups do improve. I’m shooting a 28″ draw at 68# on my Z7 Mag and my MR7 and I cannot shoot a 340 spine arrow very well with either. That spine is too weak and my groups open up huge at 40 yards and a fixed broadhead goes right every time. I had to use a .300 to improve my groupings and tune broad heads. I used the 5575 with my Switchback set the same pounds as the others and I found those weak for shooting it and moved up the .350 and was a improvement.

    http://www.goldtip.com/arrowcontent.aspx?page=recommendation  This is a link to the Gold Tip site where they tell you how to select the proper spine or model arrow for your setup. The first section under compound bows using a release aid is your answer to your question here under number 2. I copied here for others too to read.  Going by this recommendation you understand some of the reason to move to a stiffer spine.
    “ 2. For compound bows with IBO speed rating between 315-350 FPS shot with a release aid, choose at least one box to the stiffer side (to the right) for your recommended arrow. Example : If your draw weight is 72 Ibs and your arrow length is 29″, select a shaft from group number five.”

    October 21, 2013 at 4:03 pm #600453 Back to Top REPORT

    conquestador

    Age: 63
    Joined: 12/10/2009
    Location: Upstate NY
    Some people lie, others exaggerate, and then there are those who tell the truth.  For longer distance shooting, .019″ is too large due to the reason you cited.  You might want to try something in the range of a .01 for a more pinpoint sight-picture.  As mentioned, your spine could be a little stiffer.  By addressing so many different variables, all we’re looking to do is shoot the best we can with the equipment we have, which means everything has to be operating at peak efficiency.  You can spine test your individual arrows to make sure they are all indexed the same.  You can try different vanes on your arrows as well as any other components: nock, weight of tips/inserts.  Is your bow in tune?  It can get addicting and remember, you have to keep your sanity.  That’s what I’m presently working on.
    I don’t typically shoot over 40 yards, but I would like to.  To date, my best 20 yard 5 shot group is all in the 1-1/2″ bull, 4 in the 3/4″ “X” ring.  At 40 yards, all within a 4″ bull.  Note the disparity.  And those are my best, not my typical.  I’m trying to make my best, my typical and in my case it’s not a fast easy process, but I find that the more I practice, the luckier I get.  This may only address a little of what you’re looking for, but I hope it helps. It’s the finite things that get you to the best level of what you are able to achieve.  Good luck and good shooting.
    October 21, 2013 at 7:59 pm #600487 Back to Top REPORT
    tubemkr
    Tubemkr

    Age: 46
    Joined: 2/27/2011
    Location: Oklahoma
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    I hope you are welcome. I know I don’t practice over 45 yards and that’s not every day. And my groups some days are way better than others at any distance. I know if I shoot regularly and practice good form my groups do improve. I’m shooting a 28″ draw at 68# on my Z7 Mag and my MR7 and I cannot shoot a 340 spine arrow very well with either. That spine is too weak and my groups open up huge at 40 yards and a fixed broadhead goes right every time. I had to use a .300 to improve my groupings and tune broad heads. I used the 5575 with my Switchback set the same pounds as the others and I found those weak for shooting it and moved up the .350 and was a improvement.

    http://www.goldtip.com/arrowcontent.aspx?page=recommendation This is a link to the Gold Tip site where they tell you how to select the proper spine or model arrow for your setup. The first section under compound bows using a release aid is your answer to your question here under number 2. I copied here for others too to read. Going by this recommendation you understand some of the reason to move to a stiffer spine.
    “2. For compound bows with IBO speed rating between 315-350 FPS shot with a release aid, choose at least one box to the stiffer side (to the right) for your recommended arrow. Example : If your draw weight is 72 Ibs and your arrow length is 29″, select a shaft from group number five.”

    You bring up something very interesting about underspined arrows throwing broadheads to the right…that is exactly what mine do. It never really occurred to me that my arrows were too flexible. Hmmm, now you got my mind all revved up trying to figure out how to slide the purchase of a dozen arrows under my wife’s radar…
    Also, thanks for the link! Much appreciate it.

    Jerry
    November 15, 2013 at 9:19 pm #605692 Back to Top REPORT

    Shogun1

    Age: 55
    Joined: 10/29/2007
    Location: AL
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    900 round = 30 arrows at 60m 50m 40m
    122 CM target
     X ring is  2 13/32 inches
    10 ring is 4 49/64 inches
      9 ring is 9 39/64 inches
    Archer             60.    50.    40.  Total
    Robert Morro  289  294  297  880
    Lynn Riggs       289  294  297 880
    Richard Brown 286  295 296 877
    These archers shot five 6-arrow ends at 60 meters (66 yards). Out of 30 arrows, they missed the 10-ring only 11 times. (Assuming they didn’t throw a shot along the way, that means four 10s and two 9s per end — on average)
    That means they were shooting groups of less than 4.76 inches.
    If I could pull their X-count that might be even more revealing about their ability to shoot groups at distance under 3 inches.
    Then consider their 40 & 50 meter scores — only three to six misses less than the 10 ring out of 30 shots.

    BTW: One shooters that scored 880 was using fixed pins.

    Leadership is 24/7/365. You are always leading by example ... Somebody is always watching--even if it is just you.
    November 16, 2013 at 4:29 pm #605776 Back to Top REPORT
    gjarcher
    gjarcher

    Age: 70
    Joined: 10/3/2006
    Location: Colorado
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    1″/10yd is certainly achievable with properly spined arrows, tuned for optimal FOC, good bow stabilization, consistent shooting form, which short ATA bows make difficult, and avoiding being overbowed, which is very common when using ‘hunting’ bows. When someone states they shoot consistently 3″ groups at 80 yds, that would put them in the top 1% of Professional World Class archers using specially designed target bows, so I weight their statement by that standard.{#emotions_dlg.mathews_peace}

    If you can reliably shoot about 1″/10 yd groups, then you should be able to shoot at least a 525 or better on a 28 target NFAA Field Round. Not enough archers shoot the NFAA Field Round to really know what their reliable group sizes are at the various distances, especially when throwing in uphill, downhill, sideslope, irregular lighting, and the weather elements. When I was coaching years ago, I would call up my students on rainy, cold, miserable days and say, “Let’s go practice”. I was taught that Championships are won or lost in foul weather by those who learned how to deal with it … not unlike bowhunting, eh? {#emotions_dlg.mathews_wink}

    Pin size is a problem at distances if a magnifying lens is not used. One trick is to use the ‘pumpkin on a post’ or ‘six o’clock hold’ sight picture rather than obscure the target with the pin. http://westernrifleshooters.blogspot.com/2008/02/basic-rifle-marksmanship-series-part.html

    I often post pics of group sizes, but if I’m making claims, like one fletching has better control than another fletching, I always post pics of targets without ‘extra’ holes in them or account for the ‘extra’ holes, as in these targets testing helical vs. offset fletch for the New Blazer in 8 mph left to right crosswind.
    BlazerHelical-BHBlazer1-5

    November 16, 2013 at 10:23 pm #605855 Back to Top REPORT
    sagittarius
    SAGITTARIUS

    Joined: 12/8/2009
    1%{#emotions_dlg.mathews_peace}
    November 20, 2013 at 9:14 pm #606927 Back to Top REPORT
    tubemkr
    Tubemkr

    Age: 46
    Joined: 2/27/2011
    Location: Oklahoma
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    I certainly agree that weather plays a huge part in accuracy and perhaps is a major factor in my group sizes. I shoot and hunt in whatever conditions come along. If it is raining, I get hosed. Very possibly I just see the average of all my shooting and take that as what I am capable of, even the shooting in 20 mph winds. I get bothered when I shoot a deer and find the arrow entered a couple inches from where I really wanted it to hit. It is also probable that my shooting form is flawed somewhat. Hopefully I can get in even more practice hours this year and work on my shooting form. Fortunately I am at least good enough to keep putting the deer down with fair arrow placement, so I figure as long as I am shooting I have nothing to complain about.
    Jerry
    November 22, 2013 at 4:05 pm #607306 Back to Top REPORT
    vince71969
    vince71969


    Joined: 7/5/2004
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    I’ll be honest……I get a kick out of many of the “group size” posts. I’ll never call anyone a liar but many brag of group sizes that word class tournament archers would be proud of. Done with hunting rigs no less.

    Kinda like deer that were missed or never recovered. They were always giants. People never seem to shoot over or under a basket racked 6 pointer. {#emotions_dlg.mathews_deer3}

    November 24, 2013 at 6:43 am #607595 Back to Top REPORT
    99fatboy
    99fatboy

    Age: 52
    Joined: 2/15/2010
    Location: n.y.
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    I’ll be honest……I get a kick out of many of the “group size” posts. I’ll never call anyone a liar but many brag of group sizes that word class tournament archers would be proud of. Done with hunting rigs no less. 

    Kinda like deer that were missed or never recovered. They were always giants. People never seem to shoot over or under a basket racked 6 pointer. {#emotions_dlg.mathews_deer3}

    yup, they were always giants and it was a perfect shot! hmmmm. the deer i killed yesterday had a broadhead lodged in its neck behind its ear, just above the spine. who knows what happened there to not pass thru soft tissue, maybe a deflection or bad arrow, who knows, but, perfect shots kill deer within sight every time.

    black z7 magnum,tommy hogg,qad,b-stingers, vaportrail: blue smoke triumph,sword,hamskae,b-stingers:desert tactical chill R, tommy hogg,limbdriver pro v,ktech
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