Helium tunning issue won't !!

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This topic contains 16 replies, has 7 contributors, and was last updated by gjarcher gjarcher 12 months ago.

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  • August 21, 2013 at 9:10 pm #591276 Back to Top REPORT

    Mathews LD

    Joined: 1/19/2006
    I will half to explain.  I have a 30 inch draw 70 lb helium right hand. I had it shooting great. Then out side shooting back in Febuary and noticed screw backed out on cam and was rubbing limb took to dealer and mathews said rather would replace limbs and cam so replaced limbs and cam went to tune bow and noticed right away arrows would not tear right  in paper tearing ledealer took to dealer and he could not get nbroadheads amnd Jedi point back hitting together. Field point now will tear fine at about 8 yards but broad head tears left and low showing weak spine with 340 shafts so dealer wanted to try 400 Tryed them and came closer together so sold 340 s and bought 400 fletched
    2 of them and they did the same as the 340 s. {#emotions_dlg.mathews_crying}  so took back to dealer and he said he had it shooting went back and got it and still shooting broadheads to left about 5 inch at 20 yard so went back to dealer and he said would half to go back to Mathews so called them and tec support at Mathews said you should never have field points and broadheads
    hitting in same place inappropriate had it shooting great thru paper and field points and broadheads hitting together

    Before screw backed out so I knew this was wrong bow is now on its way back to Mathews to be checked out anyone else have this problem

    August 23, 2013 at 12:55 am #591512 Back to Top REPORT
    elc1973
    Elc1973

    Joined: 1/20/2012
    Location: Alaska
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    What?
    August 23, 2013 at 9:38 am #591549 Back to Top REPORT

    Hodag

    Joined: 2/25/2009
    Hard to follow.  The only thing I can get out of it is if you think the 340 are to weak going to 400 are weaker yet.  Both are to weak if you ask me.  I shoot 300 out of mine (70#/28″) with no issues.  If you sent it back yo Mathews they will get it right.  Good luck.
    August 23, 2013 at 12:26 pm #591584 Back to Top REPORT
    vash
    vash

    Joined: 5/30/2010
    needs a few of these “.” and “,”

    did you try 0.300″  spines?

    August 23, 2013 at 9:21 pm #591668 Back to Top REPORT

    Mathews LD

    Joined: 1/19/2006
    The thing I am trying to get across is the bow shot great broadheads and field point together before screw backed out of wheel now wih new limbs , new cam, new string  new idler wheel bow will not tune with same poundage , same shaft . And dealer can not get it to either bow is on its way to Mathews but was wondering if
    anyone else has run into this problem ? What are some of the 300 spine arrows you all are shooting ?
    August 24, 2013 at 9:11 am #591734 Back to Top REPORT
    gjarcher
    gjarcher

    Age: 71
    Joined: 10/3/2006
    Location: Colorado
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    Just curious, why a new idler wheel? What you describe sounds like the idler lean is out.

    Has the bow been tuned for a bullet hole in paper at two distances? Have you done a Walk Back Tune? Trying to broadhead tune and get them to hit with FPs before correcting the idler lean, before getting near-bullet holes in paper, and before doing a Walk Back Tune is not likely to work out, IMHO {#emotions_dlg.mathews_peace}

    Another issue if a bullet hole in paper can’t be achieved and a rest with down-cable actuation is used, is rest timing. First, verify no fletch contact, then make minor adjustments to rest reaction time to find a sweet spot that tunes to a bullet hole. Start with the actuation cord tied in about mid-grip … lower than mid-grip speeds up when the rest drops, above mid-grip slows it down.

    Even .300 spine shafts can be on the weak side for 70#/30″ Helim if they are longer than about 29″ AMO and have more than about 125-gr wt up front (point+insert/adapter). A .400 spine shaft is way too weak, will make tuning more difficult, and unlikely that FPs and BHs can be brought to the same POI. Your dealer should know this … and if he didn’t either he or you could have checked the arrow selection charts  {#emotions_dlg.mathews_brick_wall}
    Gold Tip Chart: Guide for Helim IBO rating recommends at least one box to the right of DW and Arrow Length
    Untitled-1

    If you want .400 spine shafts with FPs to shoot anywhere close to broadheads, once the bow has been tuned for a bullet hole, and Walk Back Tuned with FP, every shaft in the dozen should be shot through paper and the nock rotated to get a bullet hole. Any shafts that can’t be made to have a bullet hole should be set aside for FP practice only. Next, when mounting the broadheads, every broadhead should have no visible wobble when spun and oriented to the nock exactly alike. Then you have half a chance that you can get FPs and BHs hitting near the same POI … ultimately, with weak spined arrows, you’ll either have to change to mechanical heads or move the sight for the fixed-blade BHs and go hunting.

    August 24, 2013 at 9:23 am #591736 Back to Top REPORT
    gjarcher
    gjarcher

    Age: 71
    Joined: 10/3/2006
    Location: Colorado
    View My Bows

    … Field point now will tear fine at about 8 yards but broad head tears left and low … still shooting broadheads to left about 5 inch at 20 yard…anyone else have this problem

    Paper tuning is done at two distances. Easton recommends the first distance be from 4′ to 6′ and the second distance from 8′ to 12′. Beyond about 15′ the fletching begins correcting the arrow flight and the paper tear becomes meaningless for the most part.
    http://www.eastonarchery.com/img/downloads/software/tuning_guide.pdf

    If BH is shooting left and low of FPs, first lower the nock height or raise rest to get the FP and BH to hit at the same elevation.
    Next, if BH hitting left of FP for RH shooter move the centershot out, not in.

    August 24, 2013 at 8:11 pm #591788 Back to Top REPORT

    Mathews LD

    Joined: 1/19/2006

    … Field point now will tear fine at about 8 yards but broad head tears left and low… still shooting broadheads to left about 5 inch at 20 yard…anyone else have this problem

    Paper tuning is done at two distances. Easton recommends the first distance be from 4′ to 6′ and the second distance from 8′ to 12′. Beyond about 15′ the fletching begins correcting the arrow flight and the paper tear becomes meaningless for the most part.
    http://www.eastonarchery.com/img/downloads/software/tuning_guide.pdf

    If BH is shooting left and low of FPs, first lower the nock height or raise rest to get the FP and BH to hit at the same elevation.
    Next, if BH hitting left of FP for RH shooter move the centershot out, not in.

    Yes I know about cam lean all that was supposed to be took out and it is a Mathews dealer who could not get field points and broadheads to hit in same place then after contacting Mathews the tec guy said , ” you do not want your field points and broad heads hitting in same place ” I said What?

    August 24, 2013 at 8:13 pm #591789 Back to Top REPORT

    Mathews LD

    Joined: 1/19/2006
    And my arrows The 340s were 28 1/2 inches long look at you chart right in spec and still wont tune at 70 lb !
    August 24, 2013 at 8:24 pm #591791 Back to Top REPORT
    straightedge123
    StraightEdge123

    Joined: 10/22/2007

    And my arrows The 340s were 28 1/2 inches long look at you chart right in spec and still wont tune at 70 lb !

    All charts I am aware of indicate that half inch arrows are rounded up to the next inch.  In your case it would give you a 29 on the chart, still indicating a 300 spine arrow.  Back your poundage off to 60 pounds and shoot the 340′s and see how they do.  That will tell you if you have a spine issue.  As far as the 400′s go, you may go ahead and sell them.  Too bad you sold your 340′s -  you are going to need new arrows anyway.

    I guess you can try that when you get your rig back.

    {#emotions_dlg.mathews_thumbs_up}

    Mathews S2 / Copper John 4-pin / QAD HD LD / Worlds Best Strings / 808 Bowslings / Easton Bloodlines
    August 24, 2013 at 9:04 pm #591796 Back to Top REPORT

    Mathews LD

    Joined: 1/19/2006

    And my arrows The 340s were 28 1/2 inches long look at you chart right in spec and still wont tune at 70 lb !

    All charts I am aware of indicate that half inch arrows are rounded up to the next inch. In your case it would give you a 29 on the chart, still indicating a 300 spine arrow. Back your poundage off to 60 pounds and shoot the 340′s and see how they do. That will tell you if you have a spine issue. As far as the 400′s go, you may go ahead and sell them. Too bad you sold your 340′s – you are going to need new arrows anyway.

    I guess you can try that when you get your rig back.

    {#emotions_dlg.mathews_thumbs_up}

    well if you measure from inside nock to end of arrow they are 28 3/8 which would be under 28 1/2 which would round down taccord cording to how you measure
    but Easton chart which is what the arrows are is different from the chart above so don’t know who’s chart that ones is above but what ever Mathews tells me is what I will go with.  I still do understand mathews telling me field point and broadheads  shu old not hit together?

    • This reply was modified 12 months ago by  Mathews LD.
    August 24, 2013 at 9:18 pm #591802 Back to Top REPORT
    gjarcher
    gjarcher

    Age: 71
    Joined: 10/3/2006
    Location: Colorado
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    Whatever
    August 25, 2013 at 1:59 pm #591872 Back to Top REPORT

    Mathews LD

    Joined: 1/19/2006

    Whatever

    Not trying to be a smart but but I do know a little about what I am doing have been shooting a bow for 30 years now but have never had the situation with a bow like the one I have now . Just thought someone might know about what is happening and also why Mathews told me feid point and broadheads  should not hit in the same place

    August 25, 2013 at 4:48 pm #591886 Back to Top REPORT
    striperday
    striperday

    Joined: 9/29/2008
    “Seek First to Understand, Then to be Understood “.   Trust me on this bud, Listen to gjarcher !!
    August 25, 2013 at 7:53 pm #591935 Back to Top REPORT
    gjarcher
    gjarcher

    Age: 71
    Joined: 10/3/2006
    Location: Colorado
    View My Bows
    I’ve been into archery for 58 years and have seen the problem you describe many times, it is not as uncommon as you may think. I’ve explained what the most likely causes are and how they should be addressed.  The idler wheel lean would have to be reset, the rest timing reset, the nock height and centershot reset, etc. so you are really starting from scratch unless you’ve recorded these settings when the bow was shooting good. I’ve explained that your arrow selection is poor and why (the Chart is clearly labeled as a Gold Tip Chart), and if you enter the GT Chart using GT’ guidance (go one box to the right), even for a 28″ shaft 70# bow the recommend spine is still #5 .300″. Finally, I’ve explained what needs to be done to get the .400 spine shafts to work, if they will work at all with FP and BH having same POI.

    As for some unnamed Mathews Tech or Regional Sales Rep saying you can’t get .400 spine shafts with FP and BH to have the same POI, I really don’t care … I can get them to shot to the same spot (see my post “Setting Up for Broadheads“), but tuning is very critical and the arrows are very unforgiving of any form inconsistencies. If you could do it before, then you shouldn’t have any problems now, and you shouldn’t be vexed by what someone else says. {#emotions_dlg.mathews_peace}

    Easton’s guidance on arrow spine hasn’t been updated in decades, and the spine causing right or left POI is for Archer’s Paradox Fingershooters, and not applicable to release aid shooters. Here is a demo I did to show that even severely  underspined arrows  can be tuned to a bullet hole, although a bullet hole doesn’t guarantee FPs and BH will have the same POI (not all bullet holes are equal, see my post “Setting Up for Broadheads“):
    PaperTest_spine

    The Arrow Mfgr Industry has defined a Hard or Single Cam in the range of 290 fps to 315 fps. Easton has not updated their charts for X-Hard Cam, like the HeliM. Carbon Express, Gold Tip, and several other arrow manufactures have updated their arrow selection for the X-Hard Cams/Speed Bow in the 315 – 350 fps IBO rating.
    This is GT’s Guidance: http://www.goldtip.com/arrowcontent.aspx?page=recommendation
    Carbon Express provides an Adjusted DW Worksheet for entering their arrow selection chart: http://www.carbonexpressarrows.com/sites/default/files/CX_2011_BowDrawWeight.pdf

    I would recommend using CX’s Adjusted DW Worksheet and using the results when entering Easton’s Arrow Selection or any other arrow manufacturer’s chart that doesn’t compensate for the faster, more efficient bows. Example: 70# HeliM shooting 28″ or longer arrow with 100 gr screw in point has an adjusted DW of 79#.
    Untitled-1
    When entering Easton’s chart, the recommend shafts can be the .330-340 spine if a 28″ (28.5″) arrow and 78# DW is used, or it can be a .300 spine if a 29″ (28.5″) arrow and 79# DW is used. When on the borderline, it is better and easier to tune when slightly stiff than weak, especially with fixed blade broadheads.
    Untitled-1a

    I’ve asked several questions and received either vague or no answers, like idler lean was ‘supposed to be taken out’ isn’t a real answer; what check did you do on your part to verify it was correct? So, I assume you aren’t really interested in solving your problem and more interested in venting, which is OK if that is what you want … and why I say
    Whatever {#emotions_dlg.typotux}

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