Broadheads hitting 4 in low

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This topic contains 17 replies, has 5 contributors, and was last updated by bow-drawn Bow Drawn 8 months, 1 week ago.

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  • April 9, 2014 at 8:21 pm #626011 Back to Top REPORT
    paulke6
    paulke6

    Joined: 12/15/2009
    Ok guys I got a new chiller a few weeks ago and love the bow.  It shoots like a dream but when I started shooting my broadheads they are shooting about 4 in low everytime the left and right are fine.  I have shot two different broadheads through it is better but still low.  I paper tuned it with my field points and it tuned out fine.  I shoot the cabelas stalker extreme arrows through it cause right now I do a lot of hog hunting with it

    my set up
    QAD rest
    70 pounds
    29 in Cabela stalker extreme 65/80
    125 grain G5 Striker broad head

    is my spine messed up or what just asking a little help
    Thanks gues

    Scott

    April 9, 2014 at 8:35 pm #626015 Back to Top REPORT
    99fatboy
    99fatboy

    Age: 53
    Joined: 2/15/2010
    Location: n.y.
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    How far out are they hitting 4 in. low? I would say that you may want to try a small rest elevation adjustment and see what happens.
    black z7 magnum,tommy hogg,qad,b-stingers, vaportrail: blue smoke triumph,sword,hamskae,b-stingers:desert tactical chill R, tommy hogg,limbdriver pro v,ktech
    April 9, 2014 at 8:43 pm #626016 Back to Top REPORT
    paulke6
    paulke6

    Joined: 12/15/2009
    20, 30 and 40  pretty much the same at all distances.
    April 10, 2014 at 5:44 am #626062 Back to Top REPORT
    99fatboy
    99fatboy

    Age: 53
    Joined: 2/15/2010
    Location: n.y.
    Photo Gallery
    You can probably raise rest a bit and bring p.o.i. together with field tips and broad heads.
    black z7 magnum,tommy hogg,qad,b-stingers, vaportrail: blue smoke triumph,sword,hamskae,b-stingers:desert tactical chill R, tommy hogg,limbdriver pro v,ktech
    April 10, 2014 at 8:23 am #626072 Back to Top REPORT
    bow-drawn
    Bow Drawn

    Joined: 11/14/2007
    View My Bows

    You can probably raise rest a bit and bring p.o.i. together with field tips and broad heads.

    {#emotions_dlg.sign_iagree}

    April 10, 2014 at 12:04 pm #626080 Back to Top REPORT
    gjarcher
    gjarcher

    Age: 71
    Joined: 10/3/2006
    Location: Colorado
    View My Bows
    One or more of six things can be your problem:
    – AVS cams are not synched (causes persistent vertical nock travel)
    – Nock height too high (causes nock high tear in paper at 10′ from paper)
    – Nock pinch. When the string closes on the nock at full draw it exerts pressure on either the top or bottom of nock, either forcing the shaft harder onto the launcher or lifting some weight off the launcher … in extreme cases, the shaft will actually lift free of the launcher just before full draw.
    – Spine orientation not correct (must be in vertical plane).
    – Insufficient vane control.
    – Arrow spine too weak (arrows flex in vertical plane when a release aid is used. Weak arrows flex more, and broadhead arrow dynmics prevent full recover to the sight-target line).

    Before changing anything, I recommend checking for nock pinch and spine orientation using Broadheads, the most easily corrected problems. If at brace, there is about 1/16″ of gap between the lower D-Loop knot and the nock, you are OK. If there is little or no gap, you probably have nock pinch. Set the D-Loop/tied-in nock points so there is a 1/16″ gap. Then try rotating the nock from one vane to the other to see if the Broadhead POI shifts. If the BH POI isn’t corrected, move on to checking cam synch, the next most likely cause.

    Check cam synch by Creep Tuning using FPs.  This requires cable length adjustments to get the cams in synch. If the cams check out OK, then the next thing is to move the nock height or rest to correct the ‘nock high’ reaction.
    http://unofficialatfaq.tripod.com/creep_tuning.htm

    Nock height and centershot are not independent. Always correct nock height first, then correct CS. Check out this link for setting up broadheads.
    http://mathewsinc.com/forums-home/topic/setting-up-for-broadheads/

    If the problem persists, try fletching one shaft with either larger vanes, like the VaneTech or Bohning 4″ fletch, or 4-fletch using Short-N-Tall Vanes, like the Blazer or Fusion, etc. Shoot the regular fletched broadhead and compare with the heavier fletched broadhead. If this doesn’t show any improvement, then the most likely remaining cause is shaft weakness.

    To check for correct shaft stiffness/spine:
    – Use Carbon Express’ Adjusted DW Worksheet before entering ANY manufacturers arrow selection chart. Generally, the ChillR must have about 12#-15# Adj DW added to its peak DW for satisfactory Broadhead flight/tuning. Carbon Express recommends the Maxima-series 450 (.298″ Spine).

    Example:
    Untitled-1

    … or use computer simulation software, like OnTarget2!
    Untitled-1a

    To correct spine reaction, one or more of the following can be done:
    – Use less point weight
    – Lower DW by 5 lbs
    – Shorten the shaft by 1″

    If all of the above does not correct your problem, then ultimately you will need new shafts that are .250″ to .280″ spine.

    … hope this helps. {#emotions_dlg.mathews_peace}

    April 12, 2014 at 10:49 pm #627026 Back to Top REPORT
    paulke6
    paulke6

    Joined: 12/15/2009
    Ok guys I believe it was a combination of two things, Knock pinch and my spine of my arrows are two week like gjarcher stated.  I lowered my weight to see what would happen and it did close the grouping of the broad heads and the field points.  YEY!!!!

    Next question?   I hunt hogs probably 85% of the time and the main reason why I got this bow is to rig it out with a 125 grain broad head and get some good penetration on the big boar hogs.  What do y’all recommend on a good all around arrow with a 300 spine shaft that wont break the bank on price.  (gjarcher what do you recommend for this set up of mine)

    What is your thoughts on the gold tip kinetic hunter arrows.

    http://goldtip.com/productdetail.aspx?ptid=193

     

     

    Thanks for all the help guys.  Yall are the best

    Scott

    April 13, 2014 at 11:07 am #627118 Back to Top REPORT
    gjarcher
    gjarcher

    Age: 71
    Joined: 10/3/2006
    Location: Colorado
    View My Bows
    Although you said your Cabelas arrows were 29″, to work up an accurate recommendation I’ll need the bow’s DL plus anything you’ve added to the string other than a standard peep (about 7 grains) and D-Loop (about 5 grains). Heavy peeps, peeps with tubing, brass nock sets, string silencers, and kisser buttons all affect arrow speed and spine requirements. Also, if you have a particular vane or wraps in mind, that needs to be put into the work up for a recommendation. If you are shooting the bow with limb bolts maxed minus 1/4th turn, then the peak DW is probably more like 71 or 72 lbs. If you can get a measured peak DW from a reliable bow scale, that helps in the workup.

    GT Kinetics are a good arrow, but I’m not sure they fit into your “don’t break the bank” category. However, I think there are other options with more penetration potential. Get the Info needed, and I’ll get back to you.

    April 13, 2014 at 8:20 pm #627185 Back to Top REPORT
    paulke6
    paulke6

    Joined: 12/15/2009
    ok  awesome

    Draw length:    28in
    Arrows are 29 in

    On the string
    – 4 monkey tails
    -one regular peep sight (no tubing)
    -D-loop
    -Komfort kiss Kisser button

    Vanes

    I Fletch all my arrows and I use Fusion vanes 2 in

    Draw weight is 70 pounds  (it was maxed out to 72 pounds but it will be put back to 70 once I get the right arrows for it)

    I believe that is it

    Thanks
    Scott

    April 14, 2014 at 9:18 am #627217 Back to Top REPORT
    bow-drawn
    Bow Drawn

    Joined: 11/14/2007
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    Scott Gold Tip makes a Pro or the XT Hunter 300 that is less money than the Kinetic. You can put the 50 gr insert in that shaft and gethe added FOC for hog hunting.    http://www.goldtip.com/productdetail.aspx?ptid=190
    What the Kinetic XT has is added overall weight plus they use an outsert. The outsert is the weak point in this arrow. My experience the outsert will come off or break the end of the arrow off just hitting bone.
    Price wise they are about the same.

    I also would recommend looking at the Black Eagle line up of arrows. http://www.blackeaglearrows.com/

    They make several 300 spine models and the deep impact is like the Kinetic in size and weight plus taking a outsert. Price wise you find they are normally less $$. The other arrow can be given more FOC with weight added to the insert.

    April 14, 2014 at 2:01 pm #627249 Back to Top REPORT
    gjarcher
    gjarcher

    Age: 71
    Joined: 10/3/2006
    Location: Colorado
    View My Bows
    OK, with some hard info, here is are the options/choices:
    First, to salvage the Cabelas Stalker Extreme 6580’s, use 100-gr broadheads and cut them to 27.5″ from carbon to carbon (just cut from the front end), and when the nock and insert is installed, they will be 28″ AMO arrows (AMO measures from the nock throat to the end of shaft w/o point installed). At max DW they may be slightly weak, but again they may shoot just great. If they seem to be unforgiving or hard to tune for broadheads, you should only have to back off the DW by about one turn.

    (Click on image to enlarge)
    CabelasSE

    Now, for new arrow choices. BowDrawn’s suggestion is probably the best choice when on a budget. Use a PDP GT insert and the PDP weight system (less expensive than buying from GT) to get about 55-gr up front in addition to the 125-gr broadhead. This will result in a Forward of Center (FOC) weight of about 17%. Higher FOC results in greater penetration potential. In some testing that I’ve done, for each 1% increase in FOC over 12%, a 2% increase in penetration is gained. Example: if a 12% FOC shaft penetrates a foam BH target 14″, then by adding weight to get a 17% FOC, the same shaft should penetrate about 15.4″.  Higher FOC also is more stable in windy conditions.
    PDP GT .246 Converta insert
    PDP weight adapter (comes in 10/20/30 grain)
    PDP weight module (screws into the adapter) comes in 5/10/20, etc. grains
    One PDP GT insert+20gr adapter+20gr weight module = 55 grains.

    GTXT

    The next choice within a economical arrow would be the Beman ICS Hunter, very similar to the GT XT Hunter. However, if you want a smaller diameter shaft, then the Beman MFX Bone Collector is worth considering … very similar to the Easton Axis N-fused, but less $$
    BemanMFX

    Several other options would be the Victory VForce V3 300 and the Carbon Express Maxima Hunter 450. Look these over and compare.
    VForceV3 CX450

    If you want to research arrow selections/builds further, I’d recommend downloading OnTarget2 software … if it saves you from buying the wrong arrows or cutting arrows too short, it will pay for itself. http://www.pinwheelsoftware.com/sfa.aspx

    If you would like custom arrows built to your specs, I’d recommend contacting South Shore Archery … read over the page about Jerry’s custom build process.
    http://www.southshorearcherysupply.com/index.php

    April 14, 2014 at 9:00 pm #627309 Back to Top REPORT
    paulke6
    paulke6

    Joined: 12/15/2009
    gjarcher and Bow Drawn thank you both for you help.  Its nice to know there are still some good people out there that will go beyond what they need to help.

    so from the diagrams when I get new arrows I need to cut them 27.5 inches correct  (carbon to carbon).   I will ck out those 3 different arrows

    Also for the PDP GT insert, and PDP weight system was that set up just for the gold tip XT hunters or can use them on any of these arrows?

    and the beman, victory, and carbon express those are set up without the PDP system correct.

     

    I think I will probably go with the beman or the victory.

    Thanks again

    Scott

    April 14, 2014 at 9:36 pm #627314 Back to Top REPORT
    gjarcher
    gjarcher

    Age: 71
    Joined: 10/3/2006
    Location: Colorado
    View My Bows
    PDP makes inserts to fit a number of shafts, you just have to find the correct size. The PDP inserts can replace the Easton HP inserts if you want.
    http://www.pdparchery.com/124525.html
    I don’t think PDP is making a Deep-Six insert, but it wouldn’t hurt to check with PDP if that is what you would like:
    http://www.pdparchery.com/124528.html

    The Axis and MFX take an Easton H.I.T. insert. They come standard in aluminum, but you can get brass versions that are 50/75/100 grain. PDP doesn’t make a H.I.T. system. You can also find some RPS inserts made of brass instead of aluminum. Then there are some specialty heavyweight inserts. Shop around and you can find quite a few options. You’ll need something like OT2! software since trial and error can add up to a lot of $$$ … trust me, I have 5lb coffee cans filled with all sorts of inserts, weights, and points:
    http://www.3riversarchery.com/Brass+Point+Inserts_i0255X_baseitem.html
    http://www.3riversarchery.com/Gold+Tip+Point+Inserts_i6692-04X_baseitem.html
    http://www.3riversarchery.com/Easton+Axis+Brass+HIT+Break-Off+Inserts_i6757-1_baseitem.html

    I only showed the GT XT Hunter using a weight system, but you can fit both the Victory, Carbon Express, and many other shafts with a PDP weight system … as long as you get the correct sized PDP Converta insert and don’t make the spine weak.

    Example: Victory VForce 300 V3 w/ PDP weight system: PDP Tapered ACPI ICS/3-60 insert, 20-gr wt adapter + 10 grain wt module
    VForce30

    April 14, 2014 at 10:22 pm #627319 Back to Top REPORT
    paulke6
    paulke6

    Joined: 12/15/2009
    I got you so pretty much I need to start out with a 300 spine shaft at 27.50 inches  and experiment.   (get the program).    lol  but I will be ok just with lets say the beman shafts you recommended with a 125 grain broad head.
    April 14, 2014 at 11:37 pm #627323 Back to Top REPORT
    gjarcher
    gjarcher

    Age: 71
    Joined: 10/3/2006
    Location: Colorado
    View My Bows
    Depends on if you are going to build the arrows yourself, or just want to buy a dozen in a box.

    If you are looking for ‘box’ arrows, 28″ Beaman ICS Hunter 300 fletched with inserts installed are available almost everywhere and are a good, durable arrow. Install a 125-gr broadhead, spin check that it is aligned, and you are good to go. You may have to rotate the nocks on a few to find the ‘sweet spot’ for the spine, but they are very consistent shooters.

    Any of the arrows shown above will work, it depends on how you feel about needing a skinny shaft, or more FOC, etc. If you are going to build your own, the GT XT Hunter would be a good, economical choice; bare shafts cut to length run about $83/dz. The PDP GT insert and weights run about $15 extra, or just use a GT 50 grain insert.
    http://www.3riversarchery.com/gold+tip+point+inserts_i6692-04X_baseitem.html

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